Good evening President Meloni, and welcome to Tempo delle donne. As you know, the focus of our event this year is freedom, and this is precisely where I would like to start: your idea of freedom, how you imagined it when you were a girl, what you have since understood as time has gone on. Individual freedom, collective projects, engagement, responsibility: how would you like to define it, and what message would you like to give on this point?

President Meloni: “I have always interpreted freedom as commitment, essentially. My idea of freedom is the same today as it was when I was a girl. You spoke about engagement just now: I remember a line from a very beautiful song by Giorgio Gaber “La libertà non è uno spazio libero, libertà è partecipazione” [“Freedom is not a free space, freedom is participation”]. I’m a fan of Giorgio Gaber, but in my opinion Pope John Paul II expressed the same concept even better than he did, when he said that freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought. The two things go together, it’s the same concept that Giorgio Gaber also expressed, which I believe can be summed up in commitment. Freedom is essentially being in a position to be able to do your part, also being in a position to be able to show your worth. Applying this to Italy today, this is the idea we have often expressed of the relationship that exists between equality and merit. In other words, if you want to guarantee freedom in Italy, you have to put people in a position to be able to show their worth, regardless of where they come from, regardless of the family they were born into, regardless of the start they had. Everyone must be put in a position to be able to do their part, to show their worth, but this also means that that value must then be recognised, on the basis of what has been shown, of course. In my view, this is the greatest form of freedom you can defend, and that you can build too, i.e., a concept that is also linked to responsibility. Freedom is not simply about having rights, it is showing what you are able to do, based on the rights that you have”.

President Meloni, regarding the next budget law, and also in the Government programme, a key issue you have always strongly focused on is the birth rate. This is also an issue that Tempo delle donne has addressed on various occasions over the years. It is a fact that, in countries where women work more, birth and fertility rates also rise because economic independence makes women feel freer to plan their future, to decide about their lives and also to bring children into the world. Considering that the budget law is coming up, do you not think it is essential to link all incentives precisely to the issue of women’s work?

President Meloni: “Absolutely yes. I am convinced of that, as a concept and out of necessity, because we live in a nation where, on the one hand, we need children – this is also an economic issue that we have discussed many times, so I shan’t go back over the rather dramatic figures we are dealing with – but, on the other hand, we are living in a society where it is difficult to cope with single-income families. These two things therefore have to go hand in hand. I have always been convinced that they have to go hand in hand. It seems to me that it was rather other people who said that boosting the birth rate essentially meant almost fighting the possibility for women to have a job. I believe that a fair society is a society that does not force you to make that choice and that, if you find yourself having to make that choice, of having to give up on having children because you want to work – or giving up a job because you want children – then you are not free. This is why, if you look at this Government’s first measures, the measures we have focused on the birth rate, they are mainly linked to work: I am thinking of parental leave, which we extended in the last budget law; I am thinking of the ‘fringe benefit’ measure that makes one-off additional bonus payments from employers tax-free, prioritising workers with children (and this caused some controversy, with some saying it was discriminatory). The idea is precisely to work to build a society in which there is a strong link between women’s work and - as indeed I am convinced - the possibility to have children, unlike what we have been told for many years, because this is an issue I have often had clashes about, also with those who are today on the opposition. In other words, I believe that the two things can and must work together, as has been amply demonstrated – and as you mentioned – by nations that have put together important birth rate incentives linked to women’s work, showing that the two things can indeed go hand in hand. That’s why this is precisely what we intend to continue working on. Also with reference to this budget law, we are absolutely convinced that the birth rate must remain a key issue; work is another key issue and the two things must be able to go hand in hand”.

Commenting on the many incidents over the last years and months, it is said that the culture needs to change in order for behaviour to then change, in order for spaces of freedom to be recognised, in order for cases of violence to decrease. Of course, the fact that you have become President of the Council of Ministers, that a woman has become President of the Council of Ministers, is a source of inspiration for many Italian girls. However, we have also heard some comments, phrases, words, often from members of your majority, that appear to be linked to a conservative, or at least a not so modern, view of women’s role in society. I wanted to ask for your reflections on this point – and whether there is not some contradiction between these two elements. 

President Meloni: “Mr Editor, look, I’d need to know what statements you are referring to. I get accused of being a woman who wants to keep women on the sidelines of society. I can still remember being accused, on the day I asked Parliament for its vote of confidence as Italy’s first female President of the Council of Ministers, of wanting women to be a step behind men. With all due respect, I don’t believe that in my life I have shown that I want women a step behind men… so, it is important to understand what you are referring to. Why do some say I would like women to be a step behind men? Let’s go back to the reasoning from before: because I am a person who defends the value of the family and defends the value of the birth rate and the need to boost it. Those who say that having a family, the birth rate, and work can’t go together for women, consequently accuse me of wanting women to stay at home to have children. However, as I have said, I contest that idea: I believe that what has been sold as freedom cannot be sold as such, i.e., the idea of freeing women of children to allow them to work. I don’t think that, if you want to bring a child into the world, you should have to give up working, and I also don’t think that, if you want to work, you should have to give up having children if you want. If you have to sacrifice something then you are not free: so I contest the kind of freedom we’ve been presented with. I believe that a woman can and must be put in a position to have the best career possible – as indeed is the case for many women – without this meaning they have to give up other things, and I take action accordingly. Yes, I am a conservative, I consider myself to be a conservative, but by conservative I do not mean that I envisage women having to stay at home because otherwise it would not be compatible with having children. I think that, in this day and age, a normal society can create the conditions to allow women not to have to choose, and as a result to truly be free, because, until now, they have not always been. The greater freedoms I would like to guarantee through instruments the Government has to take care of are seen by some as not being a very modern vision: it is instead my view that it is the most modern of all, because modernity is about using the tools you have at this time to ensure greater freedoms”.

Staying on the subject of freedom: has the ability of the Ukrainian people to defend and fight for their freedom, risking their lives every day since 24 February 2022, surprised you? Is there still the same desire in the West to defend the freedom of the Ukrainian people?

President Meloni: “Look, it is certainly still there for my part, and it seems pretty solid to me also in the West. It has undoubtedly surprised many. I believe it has above all surprised those who invaded Ukraine, and I believe that somehow what is still happening today in Ukraine, with such a proud and brave people defending their freedom and sovereignty, has, with the facts, proven wrong those who, out of self-interest, out of propaganda, told us that we shouldn’t have helped Ukraine because it was a lost battle anyway. It was not a lost battle, and if we had followed those people’s advice (who are the same ones telling us today that we are favouring an escalation in Ukraine by helping the Ukrainians), we would not have had, how to say, peace. We would have had an invasion, we would have had a subjugated population and we would have had a war closer to home. I am therefore convinced of the choices I have made. I am proud that Italy has dealt with this season, this war, with such seriousness and reliability and with its head held high, and as far as I am concerned I will continue to do my part because I believe it is the best way to support any path to peace. If today peace is being talked about, if it is possible to talk seriously about peace, then that is because the forces on the ground in Ukraine have been balanced. If we hadn’t supported that balance by helping Ukraine then, like I said, we wouldn’t have had peace: that is what those who spread easy propaganda about the freedom of a people who are fighting to defend it pretend not to understand”.

I would like to close with somewhat of a personal question. At the start of your experience, you said that you wanted to take on this role as President of the Council of Ministers, being the first woman in Italy’s history to do so, but that you wanted to stay yourself. Do you feel you have fulfilled that commitment, to remain yourself?

President Meloni: “Yes. I am still exactly the same person, and this also means that I am never satisfied enough with what I do. That’s where I realise that I’m still me. Perhaps, as far as my personal life is concerned, this is certainly my greatest weakness, but for my public role, my duties, it is certainly my greatest strength. I always have to do more, this is always what has driven me, and, as has been the case over the last year, I shall continue not going easy on myself, despite the problems multiplying, despite the fact it sometimes feels a bit like trying to empty the sea with a teaspoon. But then a lot of results come along and Italians understand – they understand the difficulties, they understand the hard work, they understand that you really are trying your hardest – and that’s enough for me. So, I will continue to do my best, never being satisfied with trying to do my best: which means that I will try to do even more”.

Thank you, President Meloni, for taking part in our Tempo delle donne event.

President Meloni:  “Thank you, Mr Editor, and I wish you all the best with your work”.

[Courtesy translation]